John: thanks for the shout out, and the provocative piece.
Howard: at first read it seems like your understanding of relativism would increase shame rather than result in a reduction of shame at the societal level. Shame only works if something matters outside the self as per Johnny's quote from the trial transcript, a lack of shame reduces almost entirely to complete self-absorption.
I'm a fan of the band Jane's Addiction, but in a lot of songs they articulate this shameless, or “relativistic” (in Howard's sense) world view.
In “Been caught stealing”, a song that extols the joy of shoplifting, they sing, “Hey alright, if I get by, it's mine, mine all mine.”
In “Ain't no right” they sing, “there ain't no wrong and ain't no right, there's only pleasure and pain.”
This relates to what Howard says about what politicians imply: “Ain't no wrong and ain't no right, there's only legal and illegal.”
If we think back to the Lewinsky scandal, Clinton's defense was clearly “ain't no wrong and ain't no right, there's only legal and illegal.” The Ken Starr/Republican impeachment point of view was slightly different: “There ain't no wrong, ain't no right; there ain't no legal or illegal. There's only win and lose.”
However, I do think Clinton felt shame. That's what led him to put up his denials for so long, especially to his wife.
That's about as deep as I can go on this subject for now.
Oh, one more comment I forgot.
Jane's Addiction writes songs that are intended to be provacative; they shouldn't be taken at face value.
In several of their other songs they are shrill and moralistic, hectoring people for being racist or conformist or whatever. In those songs they very clearly adopt the point of view that there is such a thing as right and wrong. But they're rockers (great rockers!), so they by tradition & whatever, adopt the rocker/rebel pose. You can't do rockaroll without at least pretending to be a rebel of some sort. To do otherwise is what my friend eann likes to call “a category error.”
John:
I fell in love with Jane's addiction when I first saw the cover of ``Nothing's Shocking.'' I would think the cover of that album combined with the album title would clue most people into their sense of irony. And while I have always read some of their lyrics (`Been Caught Stealing' is a good example) as an ironic take on disgraceful behavior, I do think it is part of their nature to revel in that which many people think shameful which they do not. As you mention, it's de rigeur for rock and roll to do such.
The further irony is that if there were truly no shame left, Jane's Addiction (and other rockers) would have nothing left to rebel against. Without norms, there can be no rebellion.
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Good points. It drives me nuts when a politician answers for his social crimes with the claim that, “No laws were broken.”
I don't suppose, though, that in the whole history of civilization, politicians, the press, and the population at large has suddenly decided for the first time to abandon shame. We are not that special.
But I am concerned that the force of shame may have been steadily eroded by a view that I hold very dear. I feel that that the single most significant movement of the last five hundred years is relativism. I define this as behavior (social, scientific, legal, etc.) that is informed by an understanding that there is something dynamic and observable that matters other than ourselves.
As valuable to progress as this idea is, and as noble as it is, I fear that politicians (who may understand relativism more deeply than anyone) may be using it avoid shame and to get away with murder. We should not accept “No laws were broken,” but should hold our leaders to a much higher standard. Maybe relativism is somehow weakening that?