In order to cultivate a set of leaders with legitimacy in the eyes of the citizenry, it is necessary that the path to leadership be visibly open to talented and qualified individuals of every race and ethnicity. All members of our heterogeneous society must have confidence in the openness and integrity of the educational institutions that provide this training. As we have recognized, law schools “cannot be effective in isolation from the individuals and institutions with which the law interacts.” See Sweatt v. Painter, supra, at 634, 70 S.Ct. 848. (emphasis added)
So, I work hard and have the chance to buy a nice house in a relatively crime free neighborhood (and by the way there are folk of all different colors and ways of life in the neighborhood I refer to) and allow my child to walk to that school and for some unknown reason this innocent needs to be punished by putting her on a bus to take her miles from her home?
That is your idea of justice?
The federal and state governments started getting involved in education issues in the 70s and 80s and since then our schools have suffered. I also find it offensive to say that children of one area are automatically going to have problems. Where is the government when you need it? If a school cannot fulfill its purpose right there in the community, then measure should be taken to insure that it does.
Further,I find it repulsive that you would equate doing something to someone who has done no wrong with a criminal who has gone out of their way to harm others. There is no equating those, your argument is false at its base.
I would rather work to make all neighborhoods being filled with good, law abiding citizens, than busing folks around from one area to another. It is just putting a band-aid on a problem that is far larger than that.
I do not recall speaking about justice, actually. And the false choice you propose does not actually match the facts on the ground in the Supreme Court case in question.
I think Mr. Kostisin is taking issue with my comment. Harold's point is simply that there is tremendous value in diversity. I found the point to be so well-made, that it inspired me to go further. Much further.
On the one hand, I don't want any dissatisfaction with my view to take anything away from Harold's. But on the other hand, I think the issue is so important (see especially my last paragraph, typos aside), that I don't think Harold will mind.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to try to bring my rather abstract discussion down to earth on the specifics of Parents v. Seattle Schools or Grutter v. Bollinger. Go ahead and try to apply my logic to these cases and see if it applies. Maybe it doesn't. But I don't think that's quite what Mr. Kostisin has achieved in his comments.
First let me apologize for my not reading this thoroughly. I am a person who has been in a minority situation more often than you might believe. It never stopped me from doing what I wanted nor did it ever hold me back, only I have held me back.
To be quite honest with you, while I certainly see how “One of Us” supports diversity, I do not believe that it favors 'forced diversity'. Their are no quotas in the SCA. There is no one picking up the extra female weavers and forcing them spend time on the fighting field. No one is getting a 'leg up' to get started fighting. Marion had to pick up her armor in bits and pieces, just as I did.
Folks are allowed to go and do what want and more important than that exceptions are not made. In armor it is very easy to be color blind and gender blind. There is a saying that started back about 20 years ago 'plumbing doesn't matter'. And it should not. Just as race should not matter nor anything else. What should matter is ones desire to do what one wants. “You may be whatever you resolve to be.” I apologize for not understanding in the least how quotas might help that.
A suitable and frequently asked question. It goes to the heart of the question on what sort of diversity and in what context, and how do you achieve the needed diversity.
Allow me to break it down somewhat differently. Colleges (particularly top tier colleges) have a huge number of things they look for when admitting students. I occasionally do interviews for my alumni assoc. I was speaking awhile ago with a fellow alum on what I could do to maximize my son's chances for admission and the response was “move to Iowa.” Why? Because my alma matter gets many many more applicants from the Northeast than it does from Iowa. As a result, the same applicant with the same test scores but with an Iowa address has an edge, because my alma matter wants to maximize the diversity of its student body.
There are other things that maximize diversity of students and therefore schools look for them. Study abroad, accomplished athlete, four years of drama club, or other outstanding activities. The opportunity to do these things or not is frequently as limited for the would be applicant as moving to Iowa. Yet few folks worry that this sort of diversity is somehow “unfair,” even though the ability to control it is — to a tremendous extent — beyond the control of the applicant.
Is this type of diversity — despite its intrinsic unfairness — something appropriate for universities to consider? Should universities be prohibited from considering place of origin? Should they consider only standardized test scores? Is it wrong to penalize a top student from Maryland or California simply because many more qualified students apply from those states than apply from other states?
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It seems disingenuous to me to fight against the most direct fixes for discrimination. The folksy “plain and simple” argument is that we don't redress a wrong with another wrong. The statement isn't true, and I'm not sure it applies in any case.
We do address wrong with wrong all the time. We send people to jail. We charge interest. We send folks to the back of the line. We forfeit the deposit. Our society wields wrongs like a club. So much so that we adults don't even remember that these things are wrong. (Ask your nearest pre-schooler for a sanity check.) Regardless of whether there are better ways to behave, it seems just plain mean to me to suddenly say that positive action is out of bounds to redress racism or sexism. (And doubly so to then say it is ok to use “neutral” substitutes like geography and economics in order to unlock barriers that are these days imposed to begin with through “neutral” substitutes like geography and economics.)
The abomination of prisons are accepted on the idea that, although slavery, violence, and deprivation may be wrong, we simply cannot have bad and dangerous people running around free. If there's a better answer, great, but in the mean time we have to do a bad thing and put criminals in jail. Results matter, the feeling goes, and good intentions aside, we have to fix the immediate problem in the most direct way. OK. Maybe. (Maybe not, but that's an argument for another day.) Well, on the same lines, I feel that lack of diversity is so bad – both for the individual victims and for society as a whole – that we simply cannot tolerate it. Results matter, and when there simply are very few women and minorities in some particular societally significant domain, we have to fix the immediate problem in the most direct way.
Now, is this even bad? Does it cost someone else favor? I think there is a degree to which it does, which varies by situation. Let's look at both extremes of the spectrum.
At one end, we have situations in which there is no scarcity – where we are not playing a zero-sum game. Someone gets “in”, but no one is pushed out. At this extreme, there is no harm, no foul. What could possibly be wrong with setting another place at the table?
At the other extreme, we have a situation of strictly fixed resources. For everyone “in,” there is someone else who will never have a chance even remotely like it. The outsider is doomed. In this situation, it is clearly wrong for someone to not have an even chance on merit, and we regard any exceptions as a crime. Now, if we look at any such situations and find that there is not already a representative diverse membership, then indeed, there has been a crime! It must be addressed, and all those who have membership are accessories! They are guilty and must be punished – for example, by baring them from the activity in which they have wrongly profited. In the harsh reality of “this cannot be allowed,” we might be justified in throwing out everyone who has participated in this wrong by passing thus far. Let everyone compete anew. If the result not be free of discrimination, then let the results be thrown out again until the wrong is absent.
Now, under either extreme, or in between: is not being mean so wrong that we cannot allow discrimination to be unrelieved?
I think lack of diversity is a huge detriment to creating the greatest commong good for everyone, and for each of us individually. Except of course, for those of us who make their living from depriving others!
I also think that discrimination is a key bellwether for a larger issue that American society is plauged with today — disenfranchisement. Because we failed to fight it over “there” (in the ghettos), we know find that we're near to loosing the fight at home.